On Friday March 29, 1996 a number of students from AMST418d interviewed "Hope" (name used for reasons of anonymity), a graduate of Greenbelt highschool in 1945 at the end of World War II. What follows is the transcript from that interview.

Interview conducted by: Carl Andrews, Deena Bodley, Randall Evans, Chris Folwell, Kim Oswelier and Mark Van Doren.
_____________________________________________

Hope: We moved from a one bed room apartment, one big apartment, in Washington where my father had trouble breaking the lease. After I was old enough and conscious enough to be aware of the economics that dominated many decisions in our family. We were in Washington before my father lost his job in Chicago during the depression and immediately got a temporary appointment in Washington and that temporary appointment was for three months. After that he sent for us and we left Chicago and moved to Washington--lived in the city so I attended schools in DC when I was very young--not kindergarten because I had already finished kindergarten...first grade, second grade...third grade and it was some time in the fourth grade when I was nine years old that we moved to Greenbelt. And my family was thrilled--absolutely thrilled!---because we were going to have a house. We were assigned to a three bedroom house because I have a younger brother and because no family having children of opposite sex could have them in same bedroom. Can you imagine in Washington we were practically all in one room? How interesting that almost sixty years later we've gone to the concept of one bed to raise the family in. Are you aware of this in your family studies? There is some concept of one family bed where all the kids would be in bed with the parents. I know people who are practicing right now but at that time it was decided that we would have a three bedroom house and my parents were absolutely thrilled. Before this...we never ate dinner in a restaurant. Does this tell you something? I could name on one hand the number of times we ate dinner in a restaurant, fast food didn't exist. And I mean just an ordinary neighborhood restaurant when I was a kid.

Carl (interviewer): May I ask you, to describe--as a college student seeking a degree---I'm not even sure that I can say upon graduation I know what I want to do. And certainly while I was in high school I had no idea what it was I wanted to do. How as a student---could you describe how it was living in the Greenbelt---what were your dreams? And the jobs you wanted to get?

Hope: Oh yeah!---Career counseling was non existent, although occasionally we were told that we had to write a paper about what I want to be when I grow up---I used to have a copy of the paper I wrote---I think it was in Physics class, because Physics was mandatory in PG county high school. And I wrote a paper saying something to the effect that I wanted to be a teacher when I grew up and I went on for five or six pages telling why I thought teaching was such a great thing. Then I changed my mind, but then I came back to it and so I actually sort of had dual careers. But I thought I role modeled after the teachers that I had and I thought they were wonderful wonderful people. Except those I didn't like. But really and truly most of them I adored a model child in a model student school and I thought all of my teachers were models.

Carl (Interviewer): Were they generally speaking men or were they generally speaking women?

Hope: In the sixth grade Mr. Tortawitz (sp?) came to teach. That was the year my mother invited the teacher to come to the lunch. It was a disaster, because my mother didn't know that you don't serve a full meal at lunch time. Lunch is a sandwich and a Coke or something. My mother had a full course meal. There we were late getting back to school it killed me.

Interviewer: You did mention earlier when you talking...that you went directly to the University of Michigan.

Hope: Actually, I was right here. Between my junior and senior year in high school I got a job in the library, it was McKeldin library. In fact now you have a nice big library. You have seven libraries?...You do... At that time McKeldin was the big library it was the end of the mall library and I decided it would be very nifty to work in the library. And so I came and got hired and I had to have a work permit. So down Route 1 is Hyattsville, went to Hyattsville got a work permit came over here. I wasn't sixteen years old yet, I was fifteen. Got the work papers...I was so happy. You got the job in library it was stacks...35 cents an hour.

Interviewer: It hasn't got much better!

Hope: $4.35 an hour possibly---right? That's not much. And a couple of my friends came over a couple of nights that I went to high school with and that was really nifty. Don't even think about a car. Don't even think about driving, that concept didn't even exist. We took the bus---walked up the hill. Even night time, went home nine o'clock at night when the library was closed. While I was here the job had one perk---had a wonderful perk---first of all they found out that I could type so they took me out of the stacks right away.

(Unclear question follows):

Hope:At that time you could get tested to see what you would be good for what aptitudes you had. And I went through a battery of tests, I still have the papers the report that the psych. department did on me decide what I should major in when I went to college. Your guess is as good as their's what do you think?

Carl (Interviewer): A health profession maybe?

Hope: No, but that probably may have been down the line one of the things. I guess they based it on achievement tests as well as---they (did or didn't?) give good aptitude tests in those days, but achievement tests they did know---how much math you knew---how much English you knew---they though I'd be a good English teacher. Some place along the line I think I did go into English---teaching English. But the high school offered nothing.

Carl (Interviewer): No career focusing or anything like that? You know growing up I don't know how many of us have worked at McDonald's or the Gap or something. Was there a career that people worked at that was just the generic---everyone worked there at least once during their lifetime. The library sounds like a really special kind of deal, like that was really kind of nice---separate from---

Hope: Well I have to tell you that even in high school we were separated by those who were in the academic, those who were in the commercial, those who were in the general. Those of us who were in the academic knew that we were going to be college bound. At least we had hopes. I was lectured at home all the time (?) minimizes economics dominated the scene in those days---it absolutely did. And for some families even more so than mine. But my mother and father said to me you go to school, you shut your mouth, you behave, you do everything your teacher tells you, you gotta make good grades, you'd better! I don't know what would have happened if I didn't---on the other hand they weren't going to kill me if I didn't, but the pay off would be that your going to get a scholarship for college. Now how they might have figured this out I have to also tell you my parents were not college educated. Most of the people in Greenbelt, my contemporaries, went to school with me---did not have college educated parents. However, when the war came Greenbelt suddenly built up with what they called defense housing. And the influx of people in the defense homes happen to contain more perhaps educated parents that a lot of Greenbelt homes. There were very few ethnic groups in Greenbelt. I was first generation American---my parents were both foreign born. As my very close girlfriend who lived next door to me---also nine years old. Her parents were Dutch and they spoke Dutch. My parents were Russian born, they spoke in a couple of languages at home, but not much---English primarily and in her house too. But the fact was that there were very few---there were no blacks living in Greenbelt---our association with blacks was minimal. A handful of Jews, perhaps five in the whole high school out of 300 students, maybe 10 maybe I'm not telling the story right. But maybe more because with the influx of newer housing and the war years brought in kids from Beltsville had to go to Greenbelt high school. Which is now the middle school---Mary Beth (?) middle school---but at that time it was the high school. The war years brought a greater range of ethnic groups and families--(?) The United States government which built Greenbelt, restricted housing and followed segregation policies as did---I mean very few people now will recall that the US government at that time was segregated in housing as well as in (?schools). The Christian Brigade....?

Carl (Interviewer): I was just curious...Career Counseling...was there something that everyone in the high school, like I was say we all kind of worked at McDonald's...

Hope: One place that they all worked? Oh of course...

Carl (Interviewer): A popular place maybe?

Hope: Oh yes very popular---the United States government---if you could get a job with the government anyplace you were in. Those of us who could type and file...

Carl (Interviewer): Even in high school?

Hope: Because the war was on! You have to understand that I went to Greenbelt high school during the war years. So from '41 on until '45 when the war was over I was at Greenbelt high school. The war ended V-J day in April---I mean August 8th 1945. I can recall being here---walking down the streets of Washington celebrating---but at that time I was a typist---Dept. of Agriculture---Soil and Conservation.

Carl (Interviewer): How soon after the war ended---were you able to keep your job?

Hope: Yes, yes---well I quit because I went to college. I was telling a few people that I had conflicted about---what I wanted to be when I grew up and that's why I went through the battery of tests. My mother and father knew what I should be---in those days there wasn't so much freedom of choice. Again, because of the economic situation---you should not be a teacher not at all---you should be a social worker because that's very noble.

Deena (Interviewer): You talked about economics---I was wondering what role different economic levels played in your school?

Hope: Beautiful question. You're talking about Greenbelt? From 1937 on until 1941---I never knew of economic differences. I was nine when we moved to Greenbelt. I was not aware up until the age of nine that there were people who had a lot more than I. I thought we were just fine---we never missed a meal---we did not eat mayonnaise sandwiches with a slice of tomato on it for lunch---some kid did! We had regular meals all the time, my mother was very much into nutrition my mother joined a group at Greenbelt called The Better Buyers Club---teaching younger women---teaching women how when you go to the grocery store you don't have to buy the most expensive item---you can select and weigh---ounces compared to prices---she was very instrumental in educating people in the cooperatives which Greenbelt was. Because Greenbelt did not have any competition commercially, it was a unique community in that way. Until '41 I never knew that there were people who had more money it just never dawned on me. 1941 my parents sent me to camp---and my brother. We went to Camp Louise and Camp (?) which are near Camp David. The camp said---camp is four weeks and costs such and such amount of money. My mother said nonsense we can only afford two weeks---you go for two weeks like it or not that's what I'm going to tell them. The camp said, these are the clothes that the kids must have---for the sabbath you must have white shirts and shorts. My mother said I don't care---poor but honest---like it or lump it---your and honest child a good child---go to camp. The worst was that my mother and father could never clear up the fact that we had athlete's foot. Father's car made two miles and hour it took us four hours to get up to Hagarstown or where ever it was (?), Maryland. My brother and I were just dying---we knew the minute---they'd better look at your throat or ears---they don't care about anything else---but if you had athlete's foot my you were---weren't going to camp. I really was scared. We passed, but I (?) ...my brother still has athlete's foot. I don't know why---we didn't go to the doctor to often---you had to be really sick---the fact to say we weren't taken, we had plenty of accidents and we had to go---things had to be stitched and things happened---we had poison ivy---living in Greenbelt we did, we were out in the woods. We did a lot of nature stuff, a lot of girl scouts, a lot of grass root Americana activity. To go back to 1941 when I went to camp, for the first time in my life I met girls who had come from Pennsylvania and New York with trunks of clothes to carry! Trunks! I had never seen a trunk except---only in the movies. I never saw a you know steamship trunk---My mother said clean but honest! I had to borrow clothes for the sabbath---cause they demanded that you wear white shorts---some of those girls had ten pairs of white shorts---you know what do they need them for? It didn't embarrass me either, because I felt that my parents were absolutely correct. What bothered me a little bit more was that when we came to camp the director announced that we were the kids who were only going to stay two weeks. I guess she was not very sensitive. And I knew why we were only staying two weeks. I was really probably beyond most of the kids who never went to camp---overnight camp---we all went to girl scout camp---I loved girl scout camp---I loved everything we did---I mean I loved fourth of July, the Labor Day, the girl scout---town fairs, I can't think of all town fairs---my brother played clarinet if you know that the instruments were borrowed from the US Naval---they were old instruments and they were given to the kids---those who passed the test to play---that was another thing, my brother and I were scared stiff 'cause we couldn't sing---we could pass the music test! But we liked Greenbelt, until I was in high school, but then teenagers hate everything---you know your parents---it's pretty fashionable to start hating them.

Deena (Interviewer): What sort of things did you like about Greenbelt as a high school? Well my original question was going to be...what difference to you see between Greenbelt today verses Greenbelt then? If you could talk about that...And also what you didn't like about Greenbelt as a high school?

Hope: Well I must tell you that I adored Greenbelt up until the age of thirteen. Our mothers were very foresighted, but my parents were uneducated---later my father picked up a law degree, and so did several of the other men in Greenbelt---they went to my school better than some for the government and they did get a law degree. The women---none of them were educated to my knowledge. When the war broke out they all got jobs, for the first time in their lives. My mother was an IBM operator, the forerunner of the computer then later they found out that she could---she was talented in Russian languages and they could use her talent doing some translating. She was the one who had no imagination about the future---she thought that in high school that perhaps it would be better if I had a larger pool to select friends from---and perhaps it would be nicer if we lived in Washington where I would find more kids who were like me---similar whose parents were of a Russian immigrant background blah, blah, blah. And I didn't want to move---I screamed, I cried, I carried on a fit---then even later I screamed, I cried and carried on even more. I thought as soon as I could get out of this dumb situation---I'm moving to New York City---I'm going to Broadway.---You don't think I'm going to college and waste all my stupid time studying and college---Oh no! I'm going to be on Broadway.

Chris (Interviewer): Be a Rockett?

Hope: Oh no no---nothing so trite! A real star! Are you kidding Rockett? I was going for heavy theater and my mother was really wise beyond her years. Instead of telling me to shut up---she just simply said well yeah that's an idea---I don't know how I was going to support myself. But for those of us at sixteen, getting a job was a real problem. I was already making---I was a Grade 2 I think. I still have the papers, I passed the government exam with a 98. (?)... My mother made contract with me, way before her time---now psychologists make contracts with kids who are in trouble, in school. My mother said, well let's just have a little agreement. You go to college one year after that we'll review and see where do we stand after one year, you just try it and---I grumbled where am I going to go to college? Certainly not here!---not this school. So I asked Maryland, I asked them in the Psych. Department---where is a good school for a person with my talents? I didn't say talents, I said a person with my interests---(?) I wanted something kinda worldly---I don't know what else I told them, other than Maryland. I just knew I didn't like Greenbelt at that point. And they said, well what about the University of Michigan? That was a nice state university and I said fine. I came home and I told my mother---I'm going to the University of Michigan---I could have told my mother I was going to the University of Greenland, she didn't know one University from the other. Not that she hadn't heard about Harvard, Princeton, Yale---my mother said at that time well I think you ought to go to seven sisters school. Are you familiar with seven sisters school?...Barnard, Mt. Holyoke, Vassar, Smith, Wellsley. My mother said that's where you should go. And to please her I took the exam for seven sisters it was given at GW and promptly failed the exam. I could no more pass Latin after going to Greenbelt high school or French after Greenbelt high school. We did 34 pages of French in one year. But Michigan was fine and I went to Michigan. I was hooked after a couple of months at Michigan I was really hooked on college. My mother's contract worked very well.

Carl (Interviewer): What kinds of things did you specifically like about Michigan? I chose Maryland for very specific reasons... What was it that you like about being at Michigan? I found the diversity here and the proximity of Washington very much a draw. I'm trying to think...what kinds of things in Michigan?

Hope: I had never been with such a large group of students. Greenbelt was very limited place in terms of just sheer number. So it was overwhelming to go first of all to a college, second of all four years at Greenbelt high school---it was four years in those days 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th grade---I never saw a microscope, if we had a laboratory water---perhaps a Bunsen burner---that was it. And I had some interest---you had to take science---you had to take a course of regular history, English, science and a language. The foreign language was taught by a German who really spoke German. And I shuddered, I mean I just was overwhelmed by the fact that these professors were so much more knowledgeable than my high school teachers. The English department of course recognized my talents right away---made me very happy! I liked the University a lot. I liked meeting some of the students---they went to the Unitarian---one of the girls in my house was Unitarian, she used to invite me to lunch with the Unitarian group---I thought that was kind of nifty. I joined the co-op movement. Having come from Greenbelt---the University of Michigan had a very large co-op movement and so I joined right away---I couldn't live in the co-op, but I began eating---all my meals were in co-op which meant that one night a week you were on cooking or clean up or something. I made friends, I began dating---first time in my life. I went to Detroit, which was a very large city compared to Washington or compared to anything else I might have known. The variety of students, the exposure, the academic standing all of this was tremendous and challenging. I damn near failed Political Science---Greenbelt had no political activity, the (?) with the government forbade---still does---that you cannot get involved in politics. I was a babe in woods politically, I didn't know a ward committee man from the President of the United States. I had lots to learn---It was overwhelming, at the same time it was stimulating, it was exciting.

Deena (Interviewer): I was at Michigan for a year, I was going there for other reasons like the Fab Five.

Hope: The what five?

Deena (Interviewer):...the Fab Five...One of the things about Michigan was that it's very politically active school...

Hope: I was going to get to that. Oh yes, (? role of silence) placed upon me by parents who worked for the government. My parents were Marxist, which was a very very radical idea in Greenbelt and we were muzzled and we were told to don't dare share viewpoints outside of this house. You don't dare ever discuss this---first of all your neighbors are not prepared to understand or to accept the fact that philosophically, what they did accept politically---equality is a very good idea in actual practice---and my parents really believed in this and they really advocated this and they really taught us tolerance and understanding and acceptance to the -enth degree. So when I went to Michigan I immediately joined the political group---good that you mentioned that---still I was hesitant to mention it---I joined up with the Michigan---well there idea in those days was the American Youth for Democratic Action which became the forerunner of the (?Running Men?) I guess---I kind of matured after that---but any how I joined the Michigan Youth for Democratic Action which was the political group, radical political group of it's day. Actually, three years later, my brother---well we moved to Chicago---my brother actually joined a group in Chicago, that was even more radical that the group I joined. My parents early training really had rubbed off. Now we're of course very conservative---no that's not true I continued being quite active---I was politically active in Chicago where I went after Michigan.

Interviewer: (?)

Hope: Not during the war, after the war in the cold war. There was something called Russian war relief, Bundles for Britain---you can put this in your notes---and Russian war relief. And for the first time in all my years in Greenbelt, my parents background was appreciated because they actually raised money for the Russian war relief. And they had one evening where they had Russian food, I guess people came and brought whatever---borscht---whatever---At that time---(?) only something different was somewhat removed---I was somewhat different from all the kids I went to high school with and I will remark an episode that made history thinking---that will be unlike anyone else . After the war when the cold war started my father, still working for the government, had been transferred to Chicago and back again to Washington---was actually called up during the McCarthy years, but not because of my political life but because of my brothers. And my father simply said, I don't know what my son did---I told him not---I told him be good. Which is true---that's what my father said.

Carl (Interviewer): You mentioned that the foreign language you were taking in high school was German?

Hope: No! That was Michigan---high school that was a disaster. First of all there was a deterioration in the four years of high school because of the war. Not because it was Prince George's County---which was rotten to begin with---compared to Montgomery County---probably not compared to Howard or Anne Arundle are somebody else. But PG in comparison to Montgomery County was inferior. We were trying to recall whether it was a state law or a county law that did not have kindergarten or eighth grade in Greenbelt. You simply went to first grade through seventh, graduated and then went to ninth. You just never went to the eighth grade. And it never showed up. The state of Maryland during the war suffered like other states we got---all the men teachers were drafted---we got terrible replacements---the art teacher was twenty years old and had just graduated Western Maryland College in Westminster, Maryland where she was from---never saw a big city in her life like Washington, DC. And she was told she had to teach French---and she was very honest---she said why me?---and they said well you're just as good as anybody else, we have to have a French teacher these kids have signed up for French---and I would never admit after that that I learned 35 pages of French. One whole year. She was a lovely person we still correspond. I wanted mention to somebody about ethnic roots---I was academically gifted which helped, had I not been---I don't know what accommodations there were for kids that were handicapped, dyslexic---the word wasn't known---any kind of learning disability was foreign for those years. Certainly we had a range of students, there were plenty who were brighter than I was probably. I say probably 'cause that was hard to admit. But those of us who found school easy got into all kinds of other activities and I at that time had a great interest in drama. I was in the dramatic club and I wanted very badly to participate in the play that I tried out for and the English teacher who was a charming wonderful person said in front of all students and me---well Hope, you can't have that role you look too Jewish. My awareness of what she had said---my awareness of the fact that when you are a minority the sting is harder. And certainly she was totally unaware that what she was saying---was a reflection of what the majority opinion of the community was. What is Greenbelt like now? I go occasionally because they have a theater group there, sometimes I go and see plays there, sometimes I take friend to see what the model community of yesteryear really looked like---looks like now. My house doesn't look to different from Museum, except ours was a three bedroom and bigger---the kitchen was bigger, living room, dining room. My uncle left his typewriter there when he got drafted---it was on that type writer that I learned to type.

Carl (Interviewer): Are you going to ever use the old-fashioned typewriter?

Hope: I have a word processor now.

...Quick? Do I regret growing up in Greenbelt? This is a very significant punch line (?) Columbia was being built, my brother and I grabbed spouses and six kids between us and jumped into the car and drove out there thinking---gee the model community our (?) Let's take a look---and we sat out on the Merriwhether (sp?) Pavillion table and the kids were running around---my brother and I just shook our heads---never, we would never raise our kids this way. So if the model were truly all that great---we would have jumped into Columbia. And we shook our heads---no way. Four years I spent in Chicago I adored, I absolutely loved living in a big city. I had never seen a synagogue in all my life, never went into one---one Friday night I was just walking down the streets of Chicago and actually walked into a synagogue to see what a synagogue looked like. I was about nineteen years old, Greenbelt didn't have any. I went to church, I'd been to weddings, I'd been to church services---but every single kid in Greenbelt we were in the Girl Scouts---we were taken to the (?) Farm Dairy, which was located not far from here at that time. And after they showed us all around, gave us milk and cookies---then they said now you can come up and get your bible. You had to day whether you were Catholic or Protestant--and I thought, and I thought, and I thought---well I thought I'm neither Catholic nor Protestant---what do you say? What do you say? Being different in those days was tantamount to being dead. Times have changed? Somewhat? By the way I have three children who are three adults. One is a graduate of Maryland who went through communications. I grew up and married an immigrant. I married a German immigrant---who had been in this country only a few years---he had escaped, he and his sister from Germany---parents were killed, concentration camps. I had three kids that went to Montgomery County schools because I told them I'll die if you go to Prince George's County. I would never let my kids go to PG County---and so we sent the kids to school in Montgomery County and they fared as well as I did. My oldest son is a doctor of physics, distinguished. He is the one that said, I'll die if I have to go to Maryland, he used the same speech that I made. And the other two went here---one owns a restaurant in Sarasota, FL. And my daughter is in computer work, she's very talented.